In Dublin by Dave & Wendy

All This Time...

You moved around a lot as a child. When did you start playing guitar?

I was born in Argentina and I moved to Wisconsin when I was eleven. I actually started playing guitar a little bit before then. I moved to America for a couple of years, then I moved to England when I was thirteen or something. That's when I started really getting into guitar, and it was mainly listening to Hendrix and stuff like that. But my sister all the while that I was into Hendrix was teaching me, like, bossa nova tunes. And from South America, I listened to that shit anyway. [Laughs] I mean, it was normal for me to play in that kind of mode, that rhythm, that style – it always came naturally to me. But my main kind of passion was more like Hendrix.

When did you start playing with bands?

It was quite late on, actually. I did classical guitar for a long time. I went to music college and all that. I went through all the grading system in England: grade five, grade eight and all that sort of thing. It's quite intense. And after that I did a lot of jazz, sort of festival-y type fringe off the back of, you know, John McLaughlin and Paco de Lucia and Al Di Meola. I used to love that stuff – the power acoustic. I had a little duo like that, and we were quite successful around Europe in the arts circuit (small theatres and things like that). I did that for a long time. It’s not until I was about 26 that I saw that it wasn't economical to carry on doing that and I joined my first real band. I'd been in bands, sort of, up until then, but nothing serious. I joined World Party with Karl Wallinger. That's when I stopped being the boss, really. I mean, I just delegated myself to working for other bands because I thought it was easier. It’s through doing that that I've had the opportunity to do what my real passion is, which is my own music. I have a small audience but a very good audience. My first album, First Touch, probably sold 30,000 records worldwide, which is for an indie record quite good, I think. And hopefully the next one will do better.

Was it a conscious decision to make your first solo record primarily on the nylon-string guitar?

No, not at all. A lot of people wanted me to do an album which was showcasing my electric and all that. I think to do an instrumental electric album... There are two things wrong with that. Electric guitar without rhythm section doesn't really make much sense, I don't think. Electric guitar with rhythm section sounds like a long intro to a song. [Laughs] The other problem is that there is already one guy who does electric instrumental albums, and that's Jeff Beck. I just sort of thought, "I can't compete with this, and I don't want to compete with it." Acoustic, nylon-string guitar has always been my voice, anyway. So I was just trying to be honest with myself and put something down where I had total solidarity in its approach. I am the A&R man; I am the label. Some labels wanted to pick me up and they wanted me to get all my friends – you know, Phil Collins, Sting, all these people I could have got – in the studio. Chrissie Hynde would have done something. I could have got a star-studded cast, but I just thought, "Fuck that. I'm just going to do this: an intimate, meditative series of short stories, which is my message." It's not very important but at least it's honest, and that's all I wanted to do. It worked for me. It didn't shake the world or anything. The few letters that I've had…people are really into it. That's what has made it worthwhile. A lot of people I know use it just to chill out. That's my style more than the electric thing is.

When did you start defining your electric style?

The electric, I just sort of fell into it, because I was into so many styles and influences that... I mean, for a long time that worked against me. It’s not until I met Sting that it really worked in my favor, because what Sting's music is all about is diversity. I'm not really an expert in any one field. I had a lot of trouble finding work in the '80s and when I started playing in bands, because no-one was sure what I was. Like, "He's a bit of this, he's a bit of that" – and I wasn't even sure who I was. When I started working with Sting ten years ago, I really had a chance to develop a style on the electric – which is very much influenced, I have to say in all honesty, by Andy Summers' playing. I mean, I was never a huge fan of The Police, but the clever thing that he did with The Police was that he managed to be a guitar hero without playing widdly-widdly! [Laughs] And I thought, "Yeah, that's clever!" because in the ‘70s and early ‘80s it was kind of mandatory that you had to have guitar solos. I've never really been into that whole concept of guitar solos and the "guitar hero" thing. I'm really an accompanist when it comes to playing electric. When I play electric guitar, I like to color the songs.

When you go on the road with Sting and play The Police material, are you trying to be faithful to the original recordings?

Absolutely. That's a good point. By playing them pretty much as they are on the record, it's like I'm saying to the listener – to the Police fan – that I dig what Andy Summers did. My philosophy with playing songs that I didn't record myself is: just do it the way they did it. That worked. If it sounds good, why change it? I might just try a few little ideas within that structure but… I mean, what am I going to do with Roxanne? It's funny, when we rehearse – we rehearse for a long time, which is good – sometimes we rehearse Beatles songs. We'll take it note for note, just so that we can experience what it felt like to play it.

I remember seeing you do "Penny Lane" for a while.

Yeah, and when we rehearse them we do them very strictly. We don't jam or put our personality on it. It's a good discipline. My discipline with playing Police songs is to try and stick to the original. As I said, it's like my tribute to Andy Summers, who I think is a very important guitarist and a very important influence to me.

Have you had a chance to play with Andy?

Yeah. He came up a couple of times onstage. But it's very difficult. It's not fair on him, because we have our shit together and everything is all set up and he has to come on with his guitar... Our show is quite produced and so it has never really worked out ideally. But I would love to spend some time – just him and me – just hanging out and talking. I mean, I've spoken to him a few times at gigs or at parties or at record company 'dos. I would relish the opportunity to sit down and exchange ideas with him. I would certainly like to sit down with him and just chat. I'm into all guitar players. They're my breed, you know?

Do you bring a lot of other music with you when you're on the road?

No, not really. When I'm on the road it's a different thing. It's like you're in space, in a way – it's pretty strange. Sometimes I listen to classical music. I like tranquillity, really, because we work every day, we do soundcheck, we do a gig... Peace and quiet – it's really important.

Who are your top five guitar players, then?

I don't have any difficulty saying who they are. And they're not necessarily in any order, but we'll say: Jimi Hendrix. Jeff Beck is a really a strong influence because he's just... Jeff Beck. [Laughs] I can't fault him at all. I love his tone, I love his approach, and he's just such a consummate guitarist. I love Jimmy Page, because I think he single-handedly invented the modern rock riff. I also really, really like Eddie Van Halen, because I think he did something for the American guitar. The genius of him is that so many people have tried to emulate what he did over the years and just completely got it wrong. He really, really contributed something to the guitar. A lot of people think he's just a shredder, but he's not. He's more than that. He's done some very serious stuff. John McLaughlin – not when he does all the fast stuff, but when he plays slowly as an acoustic guitarist. I think he's just so great at phrasing, and he's such a great writer. His sense of harmony is just stunning.

Did you listen to a lot of the Mahavishnu Orchestra?

It's more his acoustic period, post-Mahavishnu, that I picked up on John.

You did get to work with him on the Jimi Hendrix tribute album "In From The Storm", right?

Yeah, that was fun. In fact, I've met all of my top five except Hendrix. I've worked with John McLaughlin once. That was an experience. In fact, that song was nominated for a Grammy. It's so weird. Sting had invited him down. Eddie Kramer, who was Jimi's producer, was putting a record together and John wanted to work with Sting and Vinnie [Colaiuta] to do "Wind Cries Mary" as a trio. They did it in Sting's studio. I remember Sting calling me up saying, "I've got John McLaughlin here and we're trying to do "Wind Cries Mary" but he can't play the rhythm part like you can." Sting doesn't care, you know. Sting said, "Can you come down and play the rhythm and he'll do all the lead stuff?" And I went, [pauses] "YEAH." It's a 60-mile journey and I was there in ten minutes! And so there I was working in the studio with John and it really worked well. I was playing the sort of loose, Hendrix style of rhythm. He was doing it too staccato. It just wasn't what Sting wanted, and he was singing the song, so... I was just like a guest on that track, and it was great. We spent a couple of days together and it was a great experience.

How do you feel when you meet guys like that?

It's fabulous. I get very nervous, obviously. These people have offered so much to the industry that I'm in. Really, I feel obligated to do the same. There are some people who aspire to what I do and I like to help them as much as I can.

The first album you did with Sting, The Soul Cages, seemed to have many guitar layers. Was it difficult to record, since that was your first time working with him?

No, no, that was actually my best experience with him because he didn't know me. I had total carte blanche on that record. I got a chance to express and develop and learn about myself as a player through that platform. It was a great opportunity, and obviously, when you do a record like that… I mean, it just gave me a lot of confidence to carry on that way.

But really, it all started just a bit before I worked with Sting. Phil Collins was the first real chance I had to find who I was as a guitar player. It was almost overnight that I decided that the best way to approach sessions was to break it down to zero. I thought, "What is the simplest thing I could play?" And that's the thing that worked. That's what ended up on the record. Phil asked me back, and we did six days on that album… But Seriously, which turned out to be very successful, and it gave me a lot of confidence. I just came up with an idea of playing simple instead of trying to prove yourself all the time. A lot of session players who want to get into the session world try too hard to prove themselves, where all the artist and the producer wants is for you to play what is required. And very often that's not very much.

Restraint is the name of the game for me. I mean, there are moments in sessions that I play where I think, "Maybe this is the time to do something flash." I think it's very important not to underestimate the listener – the non-musician. I'm a strong believer that non-musicians listen to music in the same emotional way that musicians do – no better or no worse. You have to respect that. In a way, they listen to it in a better way. They respond more emotionally to music than musicians do. It's our job to create the music. You must never underestimate people who listen to music, because they feel it. They're the ones who buy the records. You've got to put yourself into that perspective – into the mind of a music lover. That's how I've discovered this way of playing in a simpler fashion.

Did it take you a long time to finish Soul Cages because it was so guitar-heavy?

As I say, I had a lot of freedom on that record. Probably more freedom than I've had on any record with Sting, because he didn't really know me as player – and nor did I. It was a discovery process, but it didn't really take that long. We rehearsed for three weeks in New York just for the basic ideas of the record. He didn't have any lyrics then; we just had a series of jams and sketches. By the time we got to the studio, we had kind of a rough idea of what the bones of the tunes were, and I had some parts together that were bona fide, like The Wild, Wild Sea and When The Angels Fall. Soul Cages came about in the studio. Once you're in the studio, it's a creative process. You don't have to worry about everything being one guitar or two guitars or five guitars. It's just an opportunity to put something down sonically. I don't really care too much about layering or not layering. I did do a lot of tracking on that album. A lot of it is using the volume pedal and things like that, and de-tuning the guitar slightly, and vari-speeding the tape machine. Just experimenting with Hugh [Padgham], who's a great engineer. He gave me a chance to work on different ideas with the guitar. Different types of guitars, different strings, you know. It was really fun, and it didn't take that long. A lot of the stuff on that album is first take, actually. The Wild, Wild Sea and When The Angels Fall we did live with Manu [Katché] and Sting. Then, it was just a bit of layering on the top.

Your song "Do You Want Me" on First Touch sounds very reminiscent of the intro to Mad About You from Soul Cages.

Yeah, that's right. That was a riff I came up with for "Mad About You." A lot of people say it sounds like Sting, just without the vocals. The thing is that I've been playing with Sting for ten years, and I wouldn't mind saying that I am influenced by working with him – it’s true. When you work with someone, you influence each other. And I wouldn't mind saying that he might be influenced by some of the stuff I bring to the table. I mean, I'm not being cocky or anything, that's just how it works. That's why he hires certain [people] like Kenny Kirkland. He's influenced by Kenny Kirkland’s musicianship as he is by Manu Katché and Vinnie [Colaiuta]. They bring something to the table.

It would be hard to listen to "Mad About You" without the intro guitar part now, though.

Yeah, it wouldn't be the same, but he still had the concept for the song. The actual concept was the string part. Then I just came up with the riff, then we ended up starting with the riff.

Where do you or Sting draw the line between arrangement and co-authorship?

When we're in the studio I'm kind of like his cohort, I suppose – I’d spar with him while he'd be sort of putting some ideas together – just like his mate. And, every so often these songs came about. It wasn't, like, planned that I would co-write anything with him. It's just that I've got a riff and he says, "What's that?" With Shape of My Heart he calls me up a few days later says, "Do you mind if I write a song to it?" and I go "Fuck, no! [Laughs] Of course not! Please!" And then he says, "Do you want to know what the lyrics are about?" And I say, "I don't give a shit! Seriously, I'm very happy for you to do that." You know, it wasn't planned or anything. On the last album I haven't got any co-writes with him, and maybe on future albums I will. It's a great opportunity for me to write with people like that. As a result of that, I've had the opportunity to write with various people – because now I'm a signed, published writer with BMG, so they send me all kinds of pop artists. I love collaborating with people, because I know about structure and songs. If you listen to my solo record, they're all like short stories. All the melodies that I come up with are usually sung in my head. Sometimes I like to try and do it with one guitar, like Lullaby to an Anxious Child. That was written just as a guitar piece and Sting just sang on top of it.

Since you don't record many solos on electric for Sting's records, what made you play a slide solo on Heavy Cloud No Rain for Ten Summoner's Tales?

That was just an accident. It really was. [Laughs] Let's go back a bit to Soul Cages, the actual track. I was just joking. We where having a laugh about Spinal Tap, and I had my foot on the monitor and I played that riff. I was just joking, and Sting dug it! I was doing this: [mimes putting his foot on the monitor and banging his head to the Soul Cages intro]. A lot of these things come about in a strange way. I'd say with Heavy Cloud No Rain" that was, like, a joke solo. I was just being sort of cheeky. I don't play slide, really.

It's pretty funny that one of the biggest solos you have on a Sting album is a joke!

I know, it's very ironic. In fact, that solo was just lifted from the demo. It was the first thing that came to my mind.

How did you like recording Ten Summoner’s Tales at Sting’s home instead of a regular studio?

It was very intimate. That's actually the record that I was most involved in, in every song. I had quite a large presence in a lot of the intricacies of that record. It's his songs, but I was kind of the midwife to that album and his ideas, in a way.

What was your favourite track on that album?

Well, the fist track we worked on was Heavy Cloud, No Rain. I enjoyed that. That set the pace for that whole album because it was humorous. I remember it was summer and we all had a good time. I like the song If I Ever Lose My Faith In You. I just thought that it was such a solid arrangement. That was fun. I really enjoyed that. I remember him doing the vocal and it just sort of lifted the whole thing and we were so excited. You know, obviously Shape Of My Heart. I was happy to do that because it was one of my songs. It was quite exciting to hear him put the vocal down. I thought, "Oh wow, this is amazing."

What is your overall feeling about some of records you've done for Sting?

Ten Summoner’s Tales was the most intimate album I've done with Sting, I suppose. And the first, Soul Cages, was the one where I had the most freedom as a player. Soul Cages is probably my favourite as an experience, because it was my first experience and I'd got the chance to sort of express myself. Ten Summoner’s Tales was my first chance to express myself as an arranger. That meant a lot to me. I got a chance to really get inside Sting's world. That's probably the highlight. And then we did the last two.

It sounds like the last two records leaned more heavily on keyboards.

Yeah. Mercury Falling was an experimental album. [Brand New Day] I really wasn't involved in much at all. I just came in and played on it. I had a busy year and he's had a busy year and he worked with Kipper, who's the producer on that one. He's very good. That's really his influence on that album. My role on the last album was very, very minimal. But [Sting and I have] been together for ten years now. He's kind of launched me as a guitarist. The umbilical cord [was] cut after the Ten Summoner’s Tales tour. That's when I did my solo album. That's when I did a lot of work for other people outside Sting. The relationship that we have now is that I have the freedom to just be who I am. I'm the veteran in the band now. I've actually been with him longer than anyone's been with him – including Andy Summers. That's the weird thing.

What do you attribute that to?

It's a lot of things. I sort of have a bit of an ability to pre-empt his thinking a lot of the time, in terms of arrangements. I know his songs so well – probably better than he does, sometimes. In rehearsal situations I'm sort of helpful to him. I know his style. I know his timing. I know the way he uses the rhythm of the beat. I understand his sensibility and he trusts me, I think. But I'm not in his face anymore. When I said that we cut the umbilical cord, it meant that I could get a chance to go away and every time I come back and get together with him, I've got experiences to bring back to the table – different music that I've picked up along the way. We're very good friends. I wouldn't be at all bothered if he used someone else or wanted to try another route. I've had a good career with Sting. He keeps coming back to me and I'm very happy that he does. There are thousands of guitarists who want my gig – you can imagine! – and who probably feel they deserve it. I'm not stopping anyone from taking the gig, but I'm not going to make it easy, you know what I mean? I'm going to maintain my standards. I'll just do what I'm going to do, but if anyone wants to do it they'll just call him up.

You said that Sting trusts you now, but to bring in someone new like you were for Soul Cages and just let you go...

That was a risk. I remember the whole audition process. He was looking for a British type of guitarist. He wanted to get back into the guitar thing after his sort of jazz experience. I was fresh from a rock band. I remember that in the audition I wasn't really that nervous. I was already quite happy at what I was doing, so I was relaxed with it. He just gave me the job. The best thing that worked in my favour was that I didn't prepare for the audition and I didn't know the arrangements that he had. If I had known them, I would have played them – and that's not what he likes. He's a quirky, lateral thinker. He wants to hear what you have to say with these songs. So I did.

You know, the truth always comes out in the end. Anyone can play these parts. A lot of people can play what I play physically. I can play what Andy played on the [Police] records, but the important thing is to come up with parts. I think when [Sting] saw that I could interpret his harmonies in my own innate way that I was comfortable with, he was comfortable with that. It showed him that there was someone that could bring something to the table other than what he already knows. So he had a chance to nurture me as a guitarist, which he did. I'll give him all the credit for that – and confidence, because when you get a big gig, it does wonders for your confidence. It really does. I could tell that to any guitarist. Any musician, when you get a big session or a big record or you're on a hit, it just does wonders for your confidence and self-trust.

Would you have recorded your solo album if it wasn't for all of that?

I would have done it anyway, but I don't think that it would have been the same album. It would have probably been something flashy. You know, like a lot of guitarists try to get noticed. But that's where the problem is. I mean, I could do an electric rock, Beck-esque album, I suppose, but why?

Have you thought about putting vocals on your solo albums?

Yeah, I've thought about that, but the trouble with doing that is that I'm not really a singer. I wouldn't be able to do it live. I'm known really as a guitarist, and as soon as I open my mouth, people will judge me as a singer. Can you imagine Jimmy Page or Jeff Beck singing on their albums? [Laughs]

I've seen Jeff sing once or twice.

Yeah, well, it's not a good idea. [Laughs] It's not a good career move.

You seem to do some singing with Sting.

Yeah, I do backup. I mean, I can blend with another singer. I don't want to do lead vocals.

Or bring another singer in?

Well, there is one guy who did some singing on my album. Mike Lindup did some textures – like what a keyboard player would do. And he is a keyboard player.

Do you plan on touring in support of your solo records?

Yeah. I've done a few festivals, actually, in Europe on my own. And I do clinics and things like that, and it's a lot of fun. I probably will go out and do something on my own when this is over. I do different arrangements, and I can cover most of the tunes on that record.

You're going to be on this Sting tour for quite a while, aren't you?

It's going to be another long one. This is my fourth tour. Every tour that I've done I've always thought was going to be the last one, so I try and make it as good as I can. This is a very new setup, this band. New musicians, new blood and everything. We're still kind of shaping it. It's not there yet, but we're going to get it.

Do you enjoy touring, even though it's sort of a surreal experience?

It is very surreal, but I enjoy it because I like having my playing up to scratch by playing a lot. I enjoy the camaraderie of being in a band. It's everyone's dream, really. I like the whole thing of travelling with a bunch of musicians. I'm a modern nomad, really.

Unless there's another Dominic Miller running around, you've been credited with playing for the Backstreet Boys.

Yeah!

How did you end up doing that?

There was a producer in London who was doing the Boyzone single. He said, "Would you mind hanging out? Because I'm producing this thing…" and I played on it. I didn't even know who it was. I heard the vocals and I said, "Who are these people?!" He said, "It's the Backstreet Boys." So I thought, "Oh." It took me 20 minutes. I played an acoustic part. I can't even remember what it was. When I do sessions, they go by so quickly. So in terms of charging, how do you charge for a session? I just charge it as an appearance. Not by the hour, because if I did it by the hour, I wouldn't be very well off. [Laughs]

How do you choose which projects to work on?

I just get called up. I choose them according to my timetable. I'm not too proud, because I'm a professional musician. I'm not an artist. I just enjoy different experiences. And nothing gives me more pleasure than going to a record which is uncertain – let's say is an artist that doesn't know what they're doing. For me to improve that song or make it a hit is just the best thing possible. So I don't care if it's the Backstreet Boys or Boyzone or Sting or Phil Collins or whoever. If I can contribute something to the record to make it better, then I can drive home with my guitar in the back having been paid and feeling good about it. I can sleep, you know? I'm a professional guitarist. You can't say no to stuff, because then you'll get a reputation for saying no. See, the real clientele that I have is producers. Producers aren't too proud, either. I mean, some people are. But they're professional producers. So if a producer knows that you came to this record and you did something good, you're at the top of his sheet. I'm at the top of a lot of producers’ sheets. They have one, two and three or four. Then you get yourself into a situation where I'm at now – where I can work quite a lot as a session player. And I enjoy it.

Can you tell us a bit about your new solo record, Second Nature?

On the new record, I've used a bit more instrumentation. I have Manu Katché and Pino Palladino, who's great. In fact, Pino Palladino, Manu and I have an album that will be coming out soon. We've nearly finished it. We don't know who it's coming out with yet but we're called The Tweeters. It's a terrible name, but that was the best name that we could come up with!

I don't use that much in the way of rhythm section on Second Nature. A lot of it is sort of intimate music for insomniacs, I suppose. I can't write music on the road because it's not a real normal existence. All the music that I write comes from personal experiences with people that I know or don't know. Experiences influence me, like the rapport that two people can have together. It's always different, and it always influences me to write music. I always see that. Always at the end of a tour when I finish these kinds of things is when I write albums. At the end of a tour you just vent everything that's inside you. That's what happened at the end of the Ten Summoner’s Tales tour. I vented everything that was inside of me out of every pore.

Do you think that part of that was having to play other people’s music for a long time?

Yeah, it's other people's music, but I was part of the process of building that music. When I play with Sting, I really feel like I'm playing in a band. I mean, on paper it's called "Sting," but once we're onstage I would describe him as the older brother that I never had. You know, he bullies me and he's funny with me and we slap each other about and we sometimes argue; that kind of shit! It really is that brotherly type of relationship. So I really don't feel like it is like playing someone else's music because I just know the stuff so well. And I like it. I like his stuff. I mean, there're some bits I don't like. I don't like it when we play country.

Aw, come on!

I fucking hate that shit. But I know how to play it. I suppose the fun thing is that it's kind of guitaristic. It's a bit of a yoga workout for the fingers. It is. Oh, what's that song on the last album...? I'm so happy! If you saw the fingering on that, a lot of people would go, "You're crazy, man." It's very awkward. It's nuts. It's sort of relentless twanging.

Do you force yourself to like it?

No. I don't even do that. I enjoy the exercise of playing it, I suppose, to some extent. It makes me laugh. There's humour in it.

Are there some songs that you always enjoy playing?

I always enjoy playing Police songs. Always. Every time. They're so energetic, and they sound good. And certain songs from Ten Summoner’s Tales. A lot of the stuff on the new album. I love A Thousand Years. I think it's a really beautiful song, even though I hardly played on it. Live, I just do a little bit more. That's how we start the set. A lot of people criticize us for that, but I think it's great because it's quiet. We're starting a rock-and-roll show with a ballad, and I think that's so cool.

Did Sting play guitar on Brand New Day?

He did a lot of guitar playing on this album. A lot of the riffs. I think that you can probably tell what I did and what he did.

Did you teach Sting some of the classical guitar duets that I've seen you play over the years?

No, no. He reads a bit of music and so do I. We just do that for fun. It's just like an exercise. It's sort of a discipline, I suppose, playing Bach music. It's so playable on the guitar. I mean, neither of us plays it really particularly well. We couldn't do it professionally, but it's fun to play; and music should be fun to play. We just have a laugh doing it.

Sting played a guitar synth during A Thousand Years at soundcheck. Does he play guitar on any other songs in the show?

That and Fragile as well. I play bass on that.

You don't mind playing bass?

It's fun. We joke about it, because Sting is quite proud of the fact that he played [guitar on the recording of Fragile]. I remember when I first met him and I saw the video. I said to him, "I thought someone else played that and you where just miming." I said to him that I thought that it was pretty uncool of him to mime someone else. I said, "Who actually played it?" And he said, "That was me! THAT WAS FUCKING ME!!" I meet a lot of fans who think that I played it. I tell Sting that I say I did. It really pisses him off! [Laughs] I didn't even know Sting back then. So, his comeback is not letting me play it live. It's been like that for years now and I'm delegated to bass. He says I'm delegated to bass, but then I say, "Delegated means it's not so difficult." I say, "Anyone can play bass." [Laughs]

Ouch!

What do you call a shit guitar player? A bass player. Thank you. [Laughs]

© Virtual Guitar magazine | October 1999

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